Talking Soil

Date: 21 February 2024
Time: a little after 11:00
Weather: Cloudy with a slight breeze, 8℃
Location: Rotterdam Municipal Soil Bank, Teugeweg, Rotterdam North

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C: […] and nobody, you know, really wakes up at night and thinks about the rain worms or the nematodes or the algaes or whatever. 

K: I think he does (gesturing towards Guillem).

C: He does, yeah.

(all laughing)

C: But I mean, it’s really, really fascinating. You know, if you start looking in a different way, you’re seeing different things and it’s a wonderful world, even in the city. So there’s so much wonderful nature in the city, and also wonderful very small nature we really have to take care of. 

G: Yeah. It’s this idea that it’s the gaze from the urban that also kind of commodifies the soil itself. It’s just like, it’s material. It’s material to be excavated, material to be used. It’s like having concrete. If someone looks at the pile of concrete and a pile of soil, they might be looking at the same [thing]. It’s just something that is used for construction, but it’s actually an ecosystem in itself.

C: Well, the soil is a big city in itself. So, for some animals in the soil, it takes them years to find their proper place. And then, we come to take soil out to renew the sewer system, for example. But the soil in itself is like a big city, they also live in a city like we do. It’s just a different city.

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K: [As artists], we are really trying to find new systems, as well, so it is this less performative kind of outcome that’s happening too. I think we’re also really interested in how you can embody a sustainable way of working and be able to project that through your concept building, for example, or how the materials can also really reflect the concept and how can they have this nice intermingling happening within them.

G: And also how [this way of working] breaks a lot of givens of art practice, you know, like this idea of the solo artist working in their studio completely isolated from the rest and just working there. It is not a coincidence. I think that it’s not just about what you talk or how you work, in material terms, but also the structure of it. For me, it feels so organic to work with Kate for example now when we are dealing with these thematics or we are trying to learn more about ecology, about urban ecosystems, because in the end it just kind of goes hand in hand to break this kind of, I would say conventions, no? And then it feels very weird not to collaborate with people when you are thinking about the idea of an ecosystem. Then, you start thinking about your own practice as an ecosystem in which, you know, I know Kate, some energies happen here, we meet you, you talk to us about the soil bank, then we come here to meet the people in the soil bank, we also create a connection there.  

And then, we were given this opportunity by TENT, and we were like, okay, what should we do? We want to do something about soil. Let’s reach back to the soil bank, let’s see what’s possible to do there. Let’s talk about how polluted the soils are. So all these elements are not just a brushstroke or a material that you found, it’s also all these social interactions and your presence in the city that kind of fits into your art practice. The result [in this case] was a bike tour around the city to get to know which are the most polluted areas in the city, how soil changes – it’s not just where the city is laying, but how do they shift […].

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C: But in a way, the moving soil is also part of the history of Rotterdam. Because, for example, if you look at the south part of Rotterdam, it’s now a harbour area, but it used to be land, farmland. When they dug the harbours, all the soil from the harbours went to Blijdorp – the polder of Blijdorp [was] raised three metres. So the soil from the south of Rotterdam is now in the polder of Blijdorp, and they built houses on it in the 30s. But also, a lot of soil went to the Kralingse Bos, which is a natural area. That’s also strange that the soil, sort of, formed the Rotterdam we know today. I think what is very special is that now, for example, one of the harbours is filled with soil to make it into a park. So, you know, it used to be farmland, then it became [a] harbour, and now it’s made into a park with a lot of soil. That’s why there’s not so much soil here [at the soil bank] now, because one million cubic metres of soil, sand and debris went into the Rijnhaven to fill it up. So the moving of soil is also part of the story of the way we formed the city.

G: Yeah, because any soil comes from somewhere else. When you bring it, it’s been taken from somewhere else. […].

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K: I was wanting to know, what was your experience of the excursion?

C: I really liked it. I mean, today I’m here, this morning I was on my bike to Kleinpolderplein. I try to move through the city a lot, so I don’t try to be at my desk all day. But of course, I mean, I’m an advisor for the city of Rotterdam. A lot of my work is behind the desk and a lot of my work is talking to people or reading reports. I really liked to get on my bike, with all these people who were interested in soil, but didn’t know what I know about the soil in the city. And when you’re on a bicycle visiting soil, looking at soil, it’s just a very nice way to look at your job in a different way.

So I really liked it. Of course, I know the city and I knew the places we visited, but if you go there with a different reason, you look in a different way, so that was really nice. I think it was very nice to see also… I was surprised that so many people were interested in what I think is not a very, you know, romantic subject. But evidently, it had enough appeal to have so many people on their bikes. And I thought it was really nice that so many people wanted to touch the soil. When I came here I was looking at the soil and I was also trying to feel it, to feel the consistency and to look at the worms or to look at some of the debris. Not just seeing, but touching, really is a different experience. And of course, there’s nothing so touchable, I think, as soil.

K: Biased maybe? (laughing) I mean, it was such a nice surprise that you were there and also with your colleague.

C: And you had taken good care of the weather!

K: Yeah, we had some rain along the way! But it was super nice input, too, for, also, the curious bunch of people that came along that had a lot of questions too. It was really nice to have all these different perspectives in the room that could also feed into the conversation – as we’re coming into this space that is essentially an infrastructure for dealing with soil and to have these different inputs of what that involves and what that can mean, what it can generate as well. 

G: Yeah, I think that it became also a moment in which knowledge exchange or sharing knowledge came very easy. You know, it was a lot of people who are interested in soil, such as you, your colleague, but also people working in the soil bank – all these people who are looking into soil from very different disciplines and roles no? And then, how it became this moment of sharing, like over having lunch, or, I remember that we were looking at this bit of soil and all of a sudden we saw this geometrical stone. We were like, wow, so beautiful. What is this? And then, I think it was your colleague who said, oh, actually, they use these pebbles to polish metal surfaces. And we were like, wow, how do you know that? But I think it was really nice that everyone could bring their knowledge, that it was not us,  as artists, organisers, that we were imparting a lecture on everything we know, because we don’t know…

K: Yeah, we’re also learning along the way. 

G: We know a bit from our perspective, but it’s like our practice is also getting to know people who know, who can share with us, and then also incorporating that into sharing it with other people in [their own] way.

C: Yeah, I was very surprised by my colleague Raymond. He gave a presentation and in his presentation he talked about happy soil. And I thought that was brilliant, that we can actually add some happiness to the soil, for me that’s what we’re trying to do, to make the soil more happy. I think the last three or four years we’ve had a wonderful journey within the municipality to put fertile soil on the agenda. For me, it started with the Bokashi pilot, but in two weeks we’ll be making, at the Gele Keet, which is quite near the Keileweg where we were with the excursion. We’ll have 32 plots to investigate different things we try to do to improve the soil. So we will do tests with Bokashi, with fertiliser from wool, with biochar, with all kinds of different materials. And so that’s quite, I think, a big project to find out for us as a municipality what we can do in our daily practice to improve the soil and to make the soil more happy soil.

G: So is this starting this year? 

C: Yeah. 

G: Yeah, I think that it became also a moment in which knowledge exchange or sharing knowledge came very easy. You know, it was a lot of people who are interested in soil, such as you, your colleague, but also people working in the soil bank – all these people who are looking into soil from very different disciplines and roles no? And then, how it became this moment of sharing, like over having lunch, or, I remember that we were looking at this bit of soil and all of a sudden we saw this geometrical stone. We were like, wow, so beautiful. What is this? And then, I think it was your colleague who said, oh, actually, they use these pebbles to polish metal surfaces. And we were like, wow, how do you know that? But I think it was really nice that everyone could bring their knowledge, that it was not us, as artists, organisers, that we were imparting a lecture on everything we know, because we don’t know…

K: Also it’s nice to think about a diversity of approaches, right? Because I think sometimes we’re looking for one answer and there is no one answer. It also really simplifies everything so much, and then you need a huge infrastructure of one thing to also feed that. Whereas I think from us going to all these different gardens, seeing different approaches around composting, treating soil, everywhere has its own kind of idiosyncratic circumstance that are often quite difficult, and different. And that also means that there has to be a diversity of approaches implemented to make it kind of keep chugging along even.

C: And for us as a municipality that’s very difficult.

K: Yeah, totally.

C: Because we have, I think 25 million square metres of public space, public green space. So we also have a task to maintain it in a way which is efficient and cost efficient. But I’m very happy because there is much more feeling about the diversity of measures than we had a few years ago. We’re now really talking about lawns – that we can mow the lawns, but [also] have to let the grass grow or, you know, have different approaches. And I think that’s quite a big shift compared to a few years ago.

K: It’s a big achievement. Also for the mentality in the Netherlands, I think too, it is this historic kind of control within nature and organisation of space, because space is limited here.

C: I think that’s in our DNA as Dutch people. I mean, we sort of conquered the soil from the sea. And we did that. In Rotterdam we did it 700 years ago. So for 700 years the way it looks like today, that’s formed by people. So the idea that we as a people can form the soil, and we can form the landscape, that’s I think very Dutch.

G: Terraforming.

C: Sorry?

G: Terraforming.

C: Terraforming, yeah. But somewhere, we forgot that the soil has its own will and its own inhabitants. And I think that’s something we discarded for too long.

G: And the fact that, maybe, it’s just like making it anew or shifting the landscape, it’s not that  then, you can have a full right on everything you can do or you can allow yourself to do. By pumping out the water from certain areas, it’s not only humans that build and start living there. The worms go over there because now there is no water and there is more soil available to them. Birds too, a full ecosystem goes into there, not just the humans. 

C: Yeah, but Guillem, it’s also not just good, it’s also given us problems…

G: Of course.

C: Because the land is sinking. I think that’s why we need to try to live together with all those other beings in the city. I think that’s really important, but to do that, we have to first see them and take care of them […].
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C: Though compared to the snails, I think we’re far less adaptable than all these living things around us.

G: Definitely way more invasive.

K: Definitely. Yeah, it just makes me think about how important it is to acknowledge these relationships and to kind of embrace them as a reciprocal moment of co-existence, like that animals are also feeding off the structures that we’re implementing. I think it’s a type of swallow that has adapted to living in barns and they really enjoy this situation of forming their nests within barn structures. It can go both ways, it’s not also that we should just leave the animals to do their own thing and for them to get on with life because it would be better that way. I think it’s also that we have this duty of care to also acknowledge that we’ve implemented a lot of bad, but that we’ve also implemented good, and that we can work within these systems to kind of co-create. And that it is within this co-creation moment that you really start to embrace the relationships and the care and responsibility along the way  as well, which I think is super important and indeed magical in these moments of finding out these features about things like snails having so many teeth, that it just makes sense.

C: Well I think it’s very true that it starts with acknowledging that what we do affects all those other life forms. So, if we renew the sewer… We renew in Rotterdam, nearly 40 kilometres of sewer every year. So, if we renew the sewer, it affects the trees because we take them out. It affects the soil life, it affects everything. And, of course, we do it for the right reasons,  because we need to renew the sewer, but we have to realise that our work affects the lives of all those other species. And I think it starts with that, that we really have to take care of them as well.

G: And how the city doesn’t only stay in the city – it’s part of a bigger ecosystem in which it’s therefore affecting the climate. And, you know, the city doesn’t finish in the city itself, it’s interconnected with and within also in a way… Hey, I don’t know how you are feeling, but…

C: Cold.

K: Very cold.

G:  But I really need to go to the toilet. Nature is calling me. But, I don’t know, I think I’m very happy with what we talked about already.

K: Thank you so much. It was super lovely.

C: Super. I’m cold. Are you cold? You’re okay? How do you say it… “todos bien”?